Sorry everyone. I was unable to attend last night's City Council meeting (no I was not in Evansville). I had a meeting at church.
When I arrived at the meeting room everyone was just getting ready to leave. I was able to corner a couple of councilmen and learned that the bill on redistricting failed and President Gahan will appoint a committee of some of the council members. That's all I learned.
If anyone wants to contribute, please do so.
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84 comments:
I would like to know why John Gonder was allowed to vote on the Redistricting Ordinance? He was a plaintiff. That is a Conflict of Interest. You can't have two masters-it's either the people or the local government. If you are elected you are given the public trust and if you are a plaintiff/ or removed as a plaintiff of a lawsuit you are voting on, how can you have the publics trust.
Anon 9:53,
Gonder removed himself from the lawsuit long before the election.
Secondly, the reason we the remaining plaintiffs worked so so hard to get the three at large councimen on the committee was exactly because none of them had a dog in that hunt.
Those three reprsent eberyone in the entire city as oppose3d to a particular district.
Why is that so hard to comprehend??
Sorry Shirley,
I guess I shouln't try to type when I first wake up. Typing wasn't my strong suit anyway.
highwayman,
You cut a deal with those three, Messer, Zurschmiede and Gonder. Did you or did you not? Who do you plaintiffs think your kidding.
I NEVER BELIEVED THAT THE PLAINTIFFS WAS DEALING IN GOOD FAITH. WHY HAVE FIVE VERSIONS OF THE CONSENT DECREE FROM THE PLAINTIFFS?
WHAT WERE YOU PAID TO SIT ON THIS COMMITTEE MR. WIMP?
Mr. Gonder told me he didn't sign the petition. He said his wife put him on there and this was a mistake. He also stated he wanted nothing to do with the Redistricting mausit. I like Freedom Of Speech thinks something smells with this committee. To many questions not enough answers.
correction; Redistricting Lawsuit.
Hey, what about me? Can't I be accused by anonymous cowards of cutting deals? I feel left out.
Actually, I didn't. Once bitten, twice shy, and I'm still waiting for the million dollars and free building that many you same (masked) people said Mayor Garner was supposed to be giving me.
I suppose being anonymous means never having to admit you're wrong about something.
Have a fine week, New Albania.
Excellent article by Freedom of Speech, and right on the money as far as I feel. We thought the "committee" was being paid. We still feel it is Council's responsibility -- not a citizen committee -- to do redistricting. We felt Councils' responsibility was being subrogated, to whom and for what agenda? Again, the personal vendettas are pure and plain as the nose on our faces, with the same carrying on under the new Council because certain people are not happy with citizens votes and who they voted into office. Again, voters being disrespected by these individuals as far as the council members they keep castrating with their words.
We've never read anything about the rumor "Garner was going to give New Albanian free land downtown" (lol). Maybe New Albanian is trying to distract readers from FOS and here. Very accurate and apt descriptions, I feel, and what alot of people are thinking and feeling about their hard earned tax dollars and how they are being spent re: redistricting.
Why, New Albanian, do you have to come on this blog and make reference to FOS's article (lol)? Please, never mind, I really do not need an answer (lol). It would be a waste of time.
Excellent reading in blog land today. (LOL) AIN'T IT THE TRUTH!!!
Great job, blog land!
anonymous 11:35 I agree. Wonder what Part 3 of Smithgate or Watergate will be? I think something also smells from this council too.
Great job Erik, love your blog Shirley.
My daddy always said; give a politician a rope he'll hang himself all by himself. I guess that would also apply to a certain group in New Albany who have their own agenda. But now we have "them people" trying to set up the 2011 elections.
Tell us it's not political?
I just read the stupid poll questions by Randy Smith;
is New Albany's City Council right to resist redistricting?
yes, The law is wrong
No, The lies are wrong
I'm confused by the competing claims
This poll seems very slanted to me.
I feel this way, why don't these guys run for office instead of attacking every citizen or Council member who doesn't agree with them.
We already have a Redistricting Ordinance on the books. Indiana code says; Council does the redistricting not citizens.
So get over it Smith.
Thank you Mrs. Baird for allowing my voice to be heard.
Redistricting is not a cure all, since even with less gerrymandering, most districts will still feature a hugh majority for one major party or the other. Only easier ballot access, especially for independent candidates, can really increase competition.
Great blog
My question is this; was the Redistricting committee paid $50 a meeting? If not how much?
RE: John Gonder
He told me that Ruthanne had signed a petition that only specified equal representation. She also signed Mildred Gonder and John's name. She did not realize that it was about suing the council. At that time he was not a candidate for City Council. He did remove his name later but did not make a big deal out of it out of respect for Ruthanne.
RE: FOS
I thought the article was well written and well researched. I also think there will be a part 3,4,5, etc. kind of like the "Rocky" movies. lol.
I don't know if anyone was paid to be on this committee. I have heard members of the committee tell the council that they worked for free so I have to assume they did.
RE: Redistricting
Legally it is the council's responsibility to map out the districts. I also thought it rather questionable that 2 of the 3 council members who are constantly criticized by the lay members of the committee were appointed to a different district and pitted against their counterparts. I am just surprised that Dan Coffey was not in this situation also.
I remember that during a council meeting one of the council members (I think it was Dan Coffey) said that if anyone thinks they can do a better job they should put themselves on the ballot. I agree. I'm sure being a council rep is a difficult job and we should "walk in their shoes" if we want to be critical. On the other hand if a person is an elected official they should expect the flak. I know this sounds like I'm taking both sides but I think sometimes people go too far with attacks. One can discuss the issues without making personal attacks.
Many questions asked so here are some of the answers.
None of the six members serving on the redistricting committee were paid any money to do so.
No there were no deals cut with any of the members. They were just asked to come back with a recommendation that followed the law. they did just that.
Someone earlier stated that redistricting is not a cure all and that would be correct. However, it is the law and since you and I must follow the law, why shopuld we let our elected representatives get off without doing so?
I have a sneaky feeling Freedom Of Speech might be on to something. No offense Mrs. Baird but other blogs have to admit FOS sure does their homework. So what your saving Mrs. Baird that John Gonder did not sign legal papers pertaining to the Redistricting Lawsuit? FYI As legally NO one can sign another person's name to a lawsuit. They are suppose to do that themself. So this throws more questions to the agenda of this group of citizens.
Congratulations and Thank you to: The Voice of the People and Freedom OF Speech you both represent "us" the citizens of New Albany.
Love your blog Mom!
Anon 3:41
In no way was I trying to discredit FOS. They do indeed do a lot of research for their articles. And they are an asset to the blog world.
As to John Gonder's participation in the lawsuit. That is something you will need to ask him.
What does it matter if he was a plaintiff or not? He had nothing to gain, and that's the only reason to recuse yourself from a vote. (That would be why Ms Benedetti should NOT vote on her brother's issues.)
He knows more about the redistricting than the others, and is much more fair-minded. The argument could be made that Coffey, Price, Gahan, etc., should NOT vote, since they DO have something to gain!
Also, guys, the Council IS the people! (God help us all...)
How's the weather in Scottsburg, Y?
I was on the redistricting committee. No one was paid a dime. They even provided their own computers, printers, and most accessories.
Shirley, you bring up a good point about being surprised that Mr. Coffey was not "included". Does that not suggest, at least the possibility, that there was no bias.
One of the posters here mentioned, "So many questions, so few answers". Every meeting of the committee was fully open to the public and announced beforehand. All of the meetings were were after "normal" business hours. Usually 6pm and one was on a Saturday afternoon. We all complain about meetings that are held during the day when most of us are working and the committee made a purposeful decision to try and make our work sessions as accessible as possible. The point is, no one showed up to observe or ask questions.
"It's that Council's responsibility to redistrict." You know, I agree totally with this. THIS COMMITTEE SHOULD NEVER HAVE EXISTED. The REASON it did exist was that a Federal Court ruled that the Council had failed in their duty. And when the Council attempted to redistrict, they came up with something in excess of a 400 spread between districts. The Federal Court indicated to the Council that this was not good enough. That's how the committee came about. The committee came up with a recommendation of approximately 46 spread between the biggest and smallest districts. 46 vs 400+. Which one is closer to "one person, one vote"? That's the Constitutional principle the law is based on. The basis of our democracy.
The Council was free to reject our plan and they did. I'm fine with that. That is the law and the ruling. However, they still need to redistrict in a fair and equitable manner. That's still the law, too.
Mr. Cassidy,
It is a fact that Jack Messer said the plan was to put Dan Coffey, Steve Price and Pat McLaughlin against each other.
No bias??????
For it to be a "fact" as opposed to your opinion, you must have evidence to prove it.
Please provide it.
the new albanian
We stick to the facts of the redistricting issue under examination here and are unmoved by your ad hominem attacks.
You have create a false, misleading impression by playing with words.
This is a fact "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" not an opinion.
I'm not the one "playing" with words, and I suspect you know it.
Until evidence is produced for the assertion I referenced previously, then by definition it is not a "fact."
It's just one of the "rules" you claim to live by that opinions and facts are not the same.
Then again, you're anonymous. What would you know about integrity, anyway?
Beyond the fact and opinion...
I am not, and was not, unaware of the politics and personalities involved. That doesn't mean that people can't rise above their grievances(perceived or real)and still do the right thing. Also, we all sometimes say things that we really never intend to do. "I'm gonna kill you" is just one example.
I never heard Mr. Messer make any such statement. Maybe you did. What I can testify to, is that Mr. Messer did not make any attempt to bias the drawing of the districts. Nor did anyone else. Did some maybe want to? Probably but the point is, they didn't.
It's a moot point anyway. The Council has rejected it. It's up to them to do it. Again. Still.
You will get the evidence you so despereately seek in due time. It is our intention the truth should no longer be hidden from the public. You be patient. Tell us what protection can you expect from anyone then.
Sorry, but I don't do "desperation," and I don't need protection from the likes of masked cowards.
I could use a beer, though. That's a fine idea.
To all of the wannabees
Be afraid, be very afraid.
9:32
Hey, you seem like a nice guy. Cheer up your life sounds pretty normal to me you just need to get out in the world and choose better class of friends. If you have nothing to hide, then why worry. Then just put your hand on a bible and swear under oath you had nothing to do with it.
Yawns come from Satan and if you try and hold them in you will explode.
Well, let's get Messer on a waterboard and find out what he did or didn't say.
Alternatively questions of law are reviewes de novo, so whether the issues raised was "of law" vs "of fact" (or both) is pretty important.
"I personally believe that what happen here is that they targeted Steve Price because they could not beat him fair and square."
Beyond the fact and opinion...
Testify??? He means lie, doesn't he?
Shirley, I asked Baylor if English was his second language last week but apparently he didn't understand the question since he never answered. And as we all know, he has an "answer" for everything.
Did you ask me face to face or as an anonymous troglodyte?
If face to face and I missed the question, sorry about that.
If as an anonymous troglodyte, then that's why I didn't answer.
Actually, the question makes no sense -- as they say, "par for the course."
Like the pigboy would have any problem lying under oath. Come on, already.
Messer is merely a Dougette, working his way through a poli-sci degree,(lol) with dreams of making mayor by sucking up to people like Smith and England. Another faux-intellectual with the scruples of a used car salesman.
Yes, face to face.
Well, seeing as memory loss is an occupational hazard for pro beer drinkers, I have to say that I can't recall anyone asking me that question face to face, unless it was Dan Coffey mouthing words to me during a city council meeting.
The answer: No, English is not my second language.
I hope that helps. If you'd like to continue the conversation, you and everyone else knows who I am and where/how to find me. It will be refreshing to have a conversation with someone not wearing a bag over his or her head.
Where can I obtain a copy of the minutes of the Redistricting committee meetings?
Good luck on getting an answer on that one. Maybe they had to keep a copy for court.
It's public records and I want to see them. Maybe Iamhoosier can answer this one. As City Attorney Henderson once told us, if it's not in the minutes it never happen.
Be outraged at the plaintiffs. Believe that they were out to "get" some people. Be outraged at me. Don't believe me or believe that I was hoodwinked by the "bad guys". All I can tell you is what I observed and participated in. I pretty much knew when I accepted the appointment to the committee that there would be fallout.
As I just stated, be outraged at my perceived complicity or naivete if you want. Where is the outrage at the numerous sitting Councils from the last 6 or so years that have not done their lawful duty by redistricting? By not doing so in a fair and equitable manner, the citizens of New Albany(you and I)have been denied fair and equal representation. Beyond just being the law, it is a basic tenet of democracy.
You know, it's okay to be outraged at two or more groups at the same time. It's not an either/or situation.
I don't know the answer to that.
Mark
Mark,
Are you saying there were no minutes taken? It's documented you say you had no idea where council members lived but then I read you did. Which is it? Where are the records to back up your conclusions?
Our full report, signed, was presented to the Council. Our report was voted on at our last committee meeting with no objections from the members present or the public. Where it is now, is what I don't know.
I did not know where the various members lived. I did know the general geographic areas they each lived in because of the districts that they represent. I learned the exact locations AFTER the redrawing.
Anon 7:55,
What's wrong with your reading comprehension? And why are you so interested now? Couldn't trouble yourself to attend even 5 minutes of one committee meeting. No, you don't want answers, you just want to raise a stink.
I think if anybody reads my comments on this page, with any sense of fairness, will see that I have tried to be open and straightforward. I have not called people names and tried to be respectful by calling members by Mr and Mrs and yes, I do have opinions about ALL of the Council members. Those opinions played no part in my work on the committee. If they did, I sure would not have lost my Councilman in the committees plan. I like my Councilman.
And, by the way, I'm not afraid to stand up and be counted. Can I at least get credit for that?
Mark Cassidy
Some people work for a living. I guess you don't.
If there are minutes existing re: redistricting committee meetings, who (which person) took the actual minutes? Thanks.
I'm wondering the same thing. A committee with no minutes? Something smells funny about this.
FYI NA Confidential the 2007 Redistricting Ordinance is on the books. Call your buddy Wisman she'll fax you over a copy. So whose laughing now. BTW congratulation you cost your buddy a whole heep of democrats who have turned against her because of your progressive minuplation. Mark Cassidy says he doesn't know about the minutes. Wouldn't he know if he was a committee member where they are? What does the committee have to hide? Other than they tried to take an elected official out.
Hey, why not come over to the blog where this was published, and we can chat there?
Oh ... that's right ... you can't be anonymous there.
Never mind.
Anything BUT an answer about the minutes -- TYPICAL BS.
I ask why our elected and appointed officials are so eager to suck up to the likes of Doug England. You and I know the answer, but don't expect to ever get an explanation. This is our town. We pay our taxes. I heard the Mayor say on some radio station how great Kay Garry is. I almosted puked all over my key board. Who's watching out for us, while Messer helps out England?
Whose guarding the hen house while Messer,Ulrich, Smith and Gonder apparently is breaking state laws? Can't wait to see what the Attorney General has to say about Messer/Ulrich conflict of interest in the redistricting matter described by Goldberg.
I'm going to make a confession, right here, right now. I like Council member Steve Price. More than like, I admire him. He's smart, he's fiscally responsible. I don't like everything he does or says, but that's not necessary. He's careful with my tax dollars, and he takes his job seriously. You can't realistically ask for much more in an elected official.
You know what? I don't care what the progressives thinks about Steve Price. Maybe they will stop trying to change our city. If you don't like New Albany, take off - go away and write a book about how bad we are.
Iamhoosier,
You claim your full report was signed. Right? Not by Gonder or Messer. We know because we have an orginal copy of it.
What a liar you are!
A forum with England and Baylor. Too funny.
Thanks to blogs, New Albany is discovering that there are real people out here. Whether they admit or not, the local good-old-boys club is, to some extent, being threaten. People are writing and getting read and there's no way for them to stop it.
Love your blog Shirley.
Thanks to blogs, New Albany is discovering that there are real people out here. Whether they admit or not, the local good-old-boys club is, to some extent, being threaten. People are writing and getting read and there's no way for them to stop it.
Love your blog Shirley.
the new albanian
Believe you me, little boy, I get that you think it's no big deal to talk of limiting someone's free speech simply because they dared to disagree with you.
You refuse to see how you are the fascist. You are the dangerous one. You are the only person I have ever seen here speaking of limiting free speech for those who disagree with you.
Now here's the reality that completely escapes you, ypu little boy. Rhe way you treat others here is the reason you're singled out by so many here. And for me personally I am appalled by all small minded bigotry.
No guts, no glory, anonymous. As I've offered in the past, come on over and let's chat.
No masks, please. Cowardice is annoying.
You have nothing worth responding too. You just can't handle any kind of truth can you Roger?
It is my general policy to pursue truth, but like all fallible humans, there will be times when I'm wrong.
Right or wrong, I am transparent. My name is signed to everything I write, and so while you hide behind anonymity and shoot your spitwads, I have the integrity to be me.
I suppose that being you must be some sort of embarrassment. If not, you'd be in the open just like me.
Sorry if the truth hurts, but anonymity is cowardice. Is that the way your daddy raised you to be? Or is it that you've not yet grown up?
There seems to be only one BIG problem New Albanian regarding your arguments presented. ALL, and I mean ALL, of "your" anonymous, hooded, cowards, troglydytes, uneducated fools SEEM TO BE SAYING THE SAME THING, TO YOU.
We disagree with you and your perception of things. In a way we worry, whether or not you are or have run into the "good ole' boys club" in New Albany. It would be the people behind the scenes, not the orchestration presented for your viewing re meetings.
Hang in there, though the voices in my ears are as ONE.
Another Anonymous Coward Troglydyte Spewing Venom, etc.
Did anyone hear or attend the budget meeting the last two days? I saw nothing in the paper.
Thanks
You wrong? You sure got that right. Truth? You like others refuse to accept the truth. If it does not benefit you, than you attack the writer. Wanting to believe or hear the truth (facts) and admitting it is two different things. As they say "facts are facts and will not disappear on account of you likes"
Garry stated 2008 adopted budget not certified yet. 2009 Proposed Budget is $19,586,603 up from $16,134,471 for 2008. Price told Controller Garry the city is required to pay $2.3 million back as stated by the State Board of Accounts.
Fire Hazard?
Attached businesses without sprinkler systems crete the perfect scenario for a quick spreading fire. If the fire gets started and the building is not sprinklered we could lose a whole building or portions of a whole block. I'm sure New Albany has passed an ordinances that all old buildings have to be updated if someone moves out. We Fire Officials are hoping downtown businesses will install the sprinklers for their own safety and create detailed evacuation plans for their employees. It's a big cost item.I know because I'm one of Indiana's Fire Inspectors.
Great blog
Can anyone tell us why Rob Sartell and Brian Dixon (two of New Albany's employees in the Sewers) have been moved to Clarksville?
Do they still have "OUR" cars and "OUR" telephones? How can they be transferred when they are City employees and not EMC employees?
Anyone?
Isn't one of them helping Clarksville out with a problem they are having with a certain subdivison? It was in the Tribune last week.
Has anyone read today's Tribune article about "budget" front page? Looks like Garry is leading England's horse and pony show while Doug bankruptcy our city.
What until the "citizens" find out how close the city is to being bankrupted by all of England's pet projects. I hear there is a scandal brewing downtown.And I heard all these TIFS and extra pet projects are the reason for the non certified 2008 Budget. He's (England) spending money likes it grows on trees downtown. And he keeps trying to hide the truth from the citizens about the problems. Wake up New Albany and check out the facts about the city's financial condition that England, Carroll, Garry, Malysz, Wood and Rosenbarger has put us in. Come on Kozarovich and Kaukas, get the facts out in front of the citizens about how bad the budget and audit really is.
Talks started about New Albany water park. Check it out bloggers. C/J.
WAKE UP, CITY COUNCIL. DOUG IS MAKING A MOCKERY OF YOU. HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE. THIS IS TOO MUCH. SADLY THIS IS TOO MUCH. THERE IS NO HINT OF GOOD COMING FROM CITY HALL. WE HAVE NO ONE IN OFFICE, ELECTED OR APPOINTED, OTHER THAN PRICE, WHO HAS THE MORALS TO PULL THE PLUG ON THE THIEVERY AND LIES.
The city cannot afford England and his cronies. He will bankrupt us before he is through. Shame on our city for being played a fool again.
Welcome to the City of Tax and Spend.
We agree totally with you, but we believe some house cleaning needs to take place at City Hall. The City Council help create this problem. Right now the fox is guarding the henhouse.
What do you mean Rob Sartell and Brian Dixon left the New Albany Sewers?!?!!! WHEN did they leave? Is that why the sewer plant SMELLED so terribly, sickening, horribly BAD on Tuesday the 29th? Did they ASK (plead?) to go back to Clarksville or did someone TELL them to LEAVE New Albany? They work for EMC not the city of New Albany. So who is running the WWTP at New Albany? Who is overseeing and protecting the CITIZENS of New Albany's interest in the sewer engineering and construction work? Councilmembers, WHERE ARE YOU? Please, any updates? Anyone?
There seems to be conflicting information, depending on the source. People who SHOULD know say those two became employees of the City of New Albany. If they did, not sure when it would have happened.
We've always seemed to share resources with Clarksville and EMC running both plants, from trucks to vac alls. Are we sharing employees, too?
The friction between Council suing the Sewer Board over the non-bid contract may play here. We think the Council is going to lose on this issue, again, and then you have the new person hired over EMC and the Sewer Board to oversee the sewers and only one logical thought comes to our mind. If you can't break the contract through a court of law by declaring it a invalid non-bid, then break the contract another way.
Minutes in Clarksville show Brian Dixon's name on Drainage projects but I am not sure if that is "our" Brian Dixon or a relative of his.
Little knowledge among taxpayers re: what is going on in the sewer department? 8:30 AM comes early for sewer board meetings, or late, if you want to catch one before you go to work.
Our fascination comes from the "unpaid loan" due back to the sewers for the alleged "shortfall" from '03. Council "supposedly" passed some kind of legislation stating they were deferring payment back. Isn't this the year the Controller admitted keeping two sets of books, then the Controller "lost" the data and all the fire and police hire dates reverted back to the same date? Council had no clue as to the status of the books and citizens presented evidence to the State about the improprieties of the books, etc. This matter has simply come home to roost.
We really would like to see a document stating or minutes stating "Council deferred paying back a loan to the sewers in 03." Then Councilman Garner came out of his chair at this particular meeting, asking Mr. LeMar if it was true he was keeping two sets of books. We still remember Mr. LeMar admitting it. The evidence presented to the State spoke for itself.
This issue unjammed union negotiations between Overton and police and fire. It's a fact.
(Remember when all of the police turned their back at each corner when Overton went past them at the Harvest Homecoming Parade? BIG PROTEST.) Memories. HISTORY.
AMEN, I WAS THERE!
At the end of 03 Garner asked Council to defer a loan owed to the Sewers. He said if they did not "he would not have any monies to operate the City on". There are no minutes on line. We were in desperate straits at that point in time especially not knowing the real status of the books.
Dixon and Sartell were hired in when the contract was awarded. Probably not during this last contract, but the one before. Defer to Seabrook.
The Brian Dixon in Clarksville minutes is the same one who works(ed?) for us. He owns Dixon Engineering and performs drainage contracts.
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